Episode 48: Perimenopause experience from a partner’s perspective with Rich Wilson

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Hello everyone. Welcome to the Dr. Sophia ObGyn podcast. I'm an ObGyn practicing for over 15 years in my native New York City, and I love to help women learn about their bodies, empower them, and embrace themselves. On this podcast, we talk openly and with heart about all things affecting women from pregnancy, menopause periods, sexual health, fertility, and so much more. Disclaimer, this is general medical information. Based on my professional opinion and experience. For specific medical advice, please refer to your physician.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Doctor Sophia, ObGyn podcast. I am so excited. I know, I'm always so excited, but no, for real. I'm so excited today because we have a guest and it's a guy. It's a guy. His name is Richard Wilson. We call him Rich. And he is actually near and dear to my heart because he is the husband of a good friend, a patient. He's here with us to share his experience of seeing his wife go through perimenopause and what that has meant for him, his wife, and their relationship. And I'm just so honored that he's willing to be here today in order to share his experience, because I definitely feel like that part of the story is missing in the understanding of how significant perimenopause is, not just to women, but rather to everybody who is in touch with them and all of their relationships. And so, without further ado, as always, I am here with our co-host Touseef Mirza, good friend, and always here for you, our community here on Dr. Sophia ObGyn podcast.

Touseef Mirza:
Well, thank you for that warm, warm welcome. And I think we're really excited to have this conversation because we've had a few of the podcast episodes on perimenopause menopause. I've talked about my menopause journey. You have talked about your perimenopause journey, but it's also-

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
I'm still on it.

Touseef Mirza:
Definitely still on it, but it's also really interesting to see it from a men's perspective, especially when you have a committed relationship and how that actually impacts the whole interaction between two people and the relationship and, and how can we actually help each other grow. So I think that this is not just for the women, but it's also for the men. It's for everybody.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
I'd just like to caveat and say that we understand that a partnership in a partnership with a woman doesn't necessarily mean a male female perspective, but this is just the one that we're bringing to the table. Partners can be two females or whatever that partnership looks like for us right now. This is just how we're bringing it to you, but I think that the information really can be generalized even in other circumstances of what people are going through. So, Rich.

Rich Wilson:
Yes. Hello.

Touseef Mirza:
Welcome to the show.

Rich Wilson:
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad you actually considered me. You know, I am actually not an expert on this at all. I just wanna put that out there, the disclaimer. But as you mentioned, it was a journey, right? So I'm on the journey as well, and it's still ongoing, so I'm just kind of learning as I go. And if somebody can get some benefit from that, then I'm happy to share.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Yeah, well, it's the reason why we're here in general, and as far as the podcast, it really is to just bring information more than just one-on-one, right? We're able to bring information with the use of social media and bring it more to the masses, so that way people just don't feel alone going through this process. And just to kind of bring it home again, you know, this is the Doctor Sophia ObGyn podcast. And we have spoken a few times for sure on what is perimenopause and menopause. But just to bring it back to light, perimenopause being the transition that women go through when things start to change, especially their hormones leading up to their final menstrual period. And then a full year after that final menstrual period is when we consider them to be in full menopause when they've stopped having a period for at least a year.

Touseef Mirza:
So, just to put it in a little bit more concrete context, when we say women are going into menopause, which means you've stopped your period, that is the average age of 51 and perimenopause is how many years up to how many years before your menopause?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Anywhere from 10, even up to 15 years before. Because what happens is that considering the average age may be 50-51, however, as early as age 40, a woman can enter menopause. And we don't bat an eye as far as a physician. We just think that okay, it's an average, you know, women can go through menopause from anywhere from the age of 40 to the age of 58 being the, you know, when we think of it as being, okay, this is an older woman going through menopause, right? But as young as 40, as old as 58, okay, this could be happening. The average being around 50 51. And if you go through it at 40, well, your symptoms could have started when you were 35 or even when you were 32.

Touseef Mirza:
It is crazy because nobody talks about that.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Absolutely. No one talks about that. And so a woman can come to you at like 30, 35, 37, and just saying, I just don't feel like myself. I don't understand what's going on. I used to be able to do X, Y, and Z, and now I'm either scatterbrained or I, I, my peers are irregular, or I'm having hot flashes and I don't, I don't even know what a hot flash is. I just know I feel uncomfortable in my skin. I'm a little bit more irritable. I am, you know, and they're just going through all these things. They're having gut issues, they're having joint issues, they're having just a gamut of symptoms.
And it could be one, it could be three, it could be five, it could be 10. But putting that all together as perimenopause, I think is what's important to understand. And way more important for the people who love them and who are around them, such as husbands, to really get a grasp of what is going on, because they're just watching a person perhaps change in front of their eyes.

Touseef Mirza:
So Rich, can you tell us a little bit about your story or experience of how you, like, just like from the beginning of where you started to see maybe a change, or you started to have interest in perimenopause or the changes, how did this whole journey even start?

Rich Wilson:
I think it started before we even got to that point. As far as the connection with me and my wife, I feel validated in noticing changes because we've been together so long. I've been with my wife since teenage years. It's literally teenage love. So we've grown old together. So I can honestly say I've seen this phase, to this phase, to this phase, to this phase. So that's that. We've been married for 25 years now, working on 26.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Yay. Congrats.

Rich Wilson:
So we were given together a little bit before that. So we put it all together. I've been with somebody for about 30 years. So I have a good snapshot of, you know, who she is and who she's becoming. And so that being said, when do we notice the change? Right? And that's the thing that we sign up for when we get married. You know, for better or for worse, we're gonna grow together. We say that in the beginning, but this is actually what it means. We're actually now growing old. And what comes with that, and not to label perimenopause is being old, but it's another phase. Right? You don't have to be old.

You mentioned as early as 30 or 35, it can begin. So now we're not teenagers anymore, and we get into that stage and I noticed, you know, all these little things that we enjoy on a day-to-day basis, it starts to whittle away just a little bit. There's a sharpness, a brightness to your mate that you recognize, but then when you see it kind of start to shift and dim things that they normally used to be able to do with no problem becomes a challenge. And of course, they turn to you for help, or they'll just mess something up or create issues and things like that. You're like, what's going on?

Touseef Mirza:
So when you're saying that, are you talking from a physical standpoint or just being able to deal with challenges

Rich Wilson:
Day to day? So I would say the first time I started to notice that there was something consistently going wrong or something was different was when problems would happen, normal life problems, marital problems, family problems, things like that. Things that would upset you, but it would really upset her. It would just really rock her world. And you're trying to wrap your head around it. I'm like, okay, you know, I understand why you're upset, but in the back of my mind I'm like, you know, you are going a little too far, you know, this is not that serious to me, to me. And then eventually we climb out of that, and then we get into another situation and I start to put two and two together. Like, we just had an episode two months ago and you were upset and you were devastated for a week, two weeks.

When I know normally you might have bounced back or you would've had a different perspective, a little bit more glass, half full type of mentality, but that she just has a negative, you know, like a weight was on her or what have you. So I would notice that, and again, I have no idea what that could be or what was looming. I

Touseef Mirza:
So, you were just noticing it?

Rich Wilson:
This is just me going back in hindsight. During the moments, I just thought, you're just being extra. You're just being, you know, just a little bit too-

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Dramatic and emotional.

Rich Wilson:
And the thing with guys is when it comes to emotions, we kind of assign drama and being extra to the female side, and you just kind of start tuning it out. As soon as you hear too much emotion, you're like, oh, she's just being extra. But again, you know your mate, you know that she's not always this way or that way. So I just started to notice more and more of it. And so it started to get a little bit more valid to me. Something else is working here, like this is not normal or what have you. So that's the problems or the issues or challenges.

But now daily things, tasks that, you know, we probably take for granted, multitasking, maybe that's a better term, became a challenge, you know, with her secondary work. Like she started to take on more responsibility and trying to juggle things, and he was breaking into new territories and things like that. But simple tasks that I think were simple, I took for granted became more of a challenge. I need help. I need help, rich, can you help me? Can you help me? I'm kind of like, well, you, you got this, you know, what's the problem? Or I forgot this.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Like what, when you say, okay, like things about the house?

Rich Wilson:
No, let's just say you have to send a correspondence or email to somebody, and normally you kind of can just come up with the words yourself and put something together and send it out. No problem. Now it's kind of like, I don't know how to say what's in my head? I can't connect it, so I need you to connect the dots for me or whatever. To me, I'm like, okay, it's not that serious, but it's just not connecting.
You can't execute the things that are going in your, or going on in your mind or what have you. What I thought was, well, within your grasp, it's kind of getting slightly outta grasp. And we're usually, she would never ask you this type of stuff, never would ask me. She's great with most things or what have you. But now it's things that I would assume would be no problem, become a challenge.

So, you know, jumping in here, jumping in there. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, why am I here? Like, you got this, you know, but that wasn't the case or what have you. And then I would say between me and her, I would say that's a more personal thing. I would just notice less patience. I think you mentioned it when you were describing some of the, the, the symptoms and things like that. You know, I'd be in trouble all the time. Like, I'm always getting into something. I'm running late. I remember one time I was running late for something, and it wasn't really my fault, but it, you know, it kind of affected her in a certain way. And man, she let me have it on the phone. And I was like, it's not that serious. It's just five minutes.

And I'm doing the math in my head, like, this is all for five minutes. . But she completely lost it, you know? And to me, that's not normal to me. But you have to kind of play the role I'm sorry, I'm a bad guy. No problem. But you start piecing all this stuff together and you just start feeling like, what's going on? Like, why is this always the something's wrong, something's going on, something needs help with, you're always in trouble. There's always some situation that you're navigating. And that was probably the earliest sign that I realized like, all right, something, something's going wrong. I'm not sure what it is. Did you take it personally? Yes. I have to admit at, at first, I was just like, you know, and, and these are the conversations that most, I can't speak for all guys, but guys have our own our own conversations in our heads, stuff that we would never say to our wives, something we would never bring home.

We just think of my, like, you know, kind of like fighting with yourself. Punching at the air, air boxing, whatever. So yeah, you're gripping the steering wheel. You're kind of having these conversations in your head like, what did I do this, that, da da da da, da. And you start taking it personally, like you mentioned. And now my first thing is to defend myself. You know what I mean? Which is probably not the best solution. You, you know, now you're gonna throw fuel on the fire. But yeah. That, that's your first reaction
is to like, no, I don't deserve this. How, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah.

That's how I'm reasoning with myself or what have you. But then you calm down and you know, you come back into home and you make peace and everything goes fine. But then when these situations start to compile back to back, to back, those conversations with yourself, get a little bit deeper. You know what I mean? Like, you start to really allow yourself to get into emotions that kind of, you probably have no business getting into. And so, yeah. That's the scary part.

Touseef Mirza:
So let me ask you, when it started to happen, and then slowly, slowly you noticed that it was happening more regularly and or more intensely, did you talk to her about it? Or you were just like, you know what, this is probably gonna be fine. So, you know, I'm not gonna make it a big deal. We made up. It's all good.

Rich Wilson:
Made up. It's all good. That's kind of my default. I'm always kind of just trying to like, all right, that was that, you know, and put it behind me. It takes a lot for me to kind of sit down and pinpoint something because I'm the type of guy that likes to have all my ducks in a row. So if I don't know what I'm saying, I'm not gonna say anything. I did not know what I was saying. So I was like, all right, I'm just gonna leave it. I hope for the best. Maybe next week, maybe next month will be a better month or what have you. It probably was.

But then we go right back, and then now you start noticing a pattern. Now, I kind of associate, if I had, I could associate the behavior or the way it was manifesting, I would associate it. I guess the closest thing would be to PMS. You know, that space that, you know, guys are well aware of, you know, all right, this week is a bad week because of X, Y, and Z. And so I can approach it that way and navigate it that way, you know, dot all your i's cross your T's, so you don't have any problems this week. After this week, now we should be going back to normal.

Touseef Mirza:
Three other weeks, we should be fine. Right?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Exactly.

Rich Wilson:
Right. Right. So we'll give you a grace for one week out of the month, but no problem, because we totally understand what it is. Everybody knows, et cetera.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Women get their period. And there's a time for not all women, but certainly a lot of women experience what we call premenstrual syndrome. Yeah. And during that time, it can be very jarring for some women
and their partners that they have to experience just not what's going on in their bodies and their minds.

Touseef Mirza:
And also we did, we always forget that it's PMS.

Rich Wilson:
I forget too. And we got apps and we got all kinds of stuff on our phone to remind us. And next thing you know, I'm three days into a cycle and I'm like, oh, that's why. Yeah. Right. I remember that's why her back.

Touseef Mirza:
I appreciate that you have that in your calendar.

Rich Wilson:
It's there and I missed it. And then it just all connects. Most men know how to handle their particular wives. It's all different, but it's all the same. This was different because it was like an extended PMS space. It wasn't just a, you know, a bad week. It turns into a bad month at times, or, you know, then we'll have one or two good weeks and then another bad week or two. Two weeks and so forth. And I'm like, wow. It's like, you know, the same pattern or what have you.

That's very familiar. But I can't associate it with pms 'cause that's not what's actually happening. This is just different. Maybe some guys could relate, like when pms is over, we get back to the good times. So you expect that, you know, next week is gonna be awesome because that dead weight is off and we're just back to ourselves. And then we would never get back to ourselves that Monday, that Tuesday when
everything is done. It's like, it's kind of the same thing. What? Nothing changed.

Touseef Mirza:
It's just like, okay, I can go through this this week because I know on the other side it's gonna be great.
We're still here. But that doesn't happen here.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah. So again, in hindsight, I had no idea what this was. I just kind of, just looking back and those are some of the thoughts that I have. Like, you know, what's, what's really going on? And it, it is a scary thing when you, you know, you come home and you're not sure what version you're gonna get, and you can tell right away from the hello or the greeting that something is like, okay.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Today wasn't a good day.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah, yeah. It might just be talking to you a little bit short, you know, or at least in my case, the conversation is nothing dramatic, but it would just be very transactional. You know, hello, you'll do this, sit that da da, you know, kind of like what have you. And you don't really have a lot to say. You might try to do a little this, a little of that, and it doesn't last. You know, just kind of like fizzles back, back out to that default. So yeah, that was probably one of the biggest red flags. Is that, was the change that you was starting to notice over time.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
That you felt like you weren't having the same kind happy conversations or just like, like you
said, kind of talking to your best friend about how things go.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah. And it, and it just lasts long. I'm used to it, we're all used to that, you know, not everything is happy, go lucky all the time. We get in, we have bad days, bad weeks, and then of course you add the PMS component to it. So it's not always a great time. But we started having more bad times than we could. Our ratio was off. It used to be the other way around. And then it started to tip the other way. So that was, that was alarming.

Touseef Mirza:
And when you say alarming, is it because you, like, how alarming was that for you? You were, were you just like, okay, I think we're gonna be able to get through this patch eventually? Or was it more concerning to you than that in terms of your connection?

Rich Wilson:
So, because there was no this to attach it to, or to call it a patch or temporary, it became the norm. Like, this is now who she is. And this is who we are now. And that's scary 'cause again, this is somebody that I've known since as a teenager. And now I'm at a certain age, I, you know, there's expectations. We just hope that things are just gonna move a certain way. And it's scary that what if that's all gone, you know, and that's it. And this is all we have going forward.

This is who she is now. Or it's something I did, or she doesn't love me as much as I, she says she did, or she thought she did, or I thought, or something else has changed that I'm not aware of. So without anything to point it to, to say that, all right, this is just a rough patch and there's some type of end in sight, you know.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
It feels like the new norm. Yeah. And the new norm is scary.

Rich Wilson:
It was scary. That was, yeah. More than I would probably admit to her. But yeah, it was scary for me because now it's like, what am I gonna do? Because these are things that you depend on. You depend on your mate to make you feel a certain way, and then you expect also to be able to help her to come out of certain spaces, you know, and then you get to a point where there's nothing you can do.
So that helpless feeling, meaning that I can't really, you know, flowers or this or that, or just going out to dinner and we kind of, whatever it is still not that, you know, and guys like to fix things, we like to kind of just make it right. And when you realize you can't beat this one, you know, that's scary, you know, for a guy 'cause I didn't have the answers for that situation.

Touseef Mirza:
I think it's so important what you're saying because it literally can change the dynamics of a relationship. And then some people like you, like still like, stuck in there and said, you know, okay, no, we'll keep going. But there might be certain relationships where they say, well, you know, I can't deal with this, this is not what I signed up for. Or they think something else is wrong that is completely out of their control and they don't wanna be part of that anymore. So I think it's, it's so important to have this conversation to realize that it's actually fixable versus just throwing in the towel and saying, well, I can't fix this.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Yeah. I, I think it's important for us to bring in a few just things to understand about women in midlife and just midlife in general. This is actually the time when people do get divorced more often. This is also the time when women tend to experience depression and even suicide, you know, between the ages of 45 and 60. And I think it's important for us to understand that going through perimenopause and how it changes relationships is so important. And why I am glad. And so really thankful, rich, that you were willing to come and talk to us about this. Because I think that there are couples who are going through it silently and thinking that they just have to accept whatever is the quote unquote new norm. And that new norm is scary.

Rich Wilson:
I think there's a cause and effect aspect too. Because now that I look back, she's in a state of confusion also not knowing why I'm not who I used to be and why I can't connect all the dots, why I'm having these issues. Why am I always kind of annoyed or whatever it might be? I am also in a state of confusion. And then if I react to it the wrong way, it can cause her to double down in a negative way regarding whatever she's dealing with. Vice versa, I also double down and now we just start growing apart, you know, little by little.

Touseef Mirza:
It’s like a vicious circle.

Rich Wilson:
Because at least at this stage that I'm referring to, no one knew what we were dealing with. So there was no, alright, let's come up with a plan. Now it's just, this is my new norm and this is your new norm. And now I'm reacting to you, you're reacting to me and become very reactive. And like you mentioned, a lot of times I think if there's no education or people aren't aware of what's really happening, you take it personal and what do you do? You go and self-soothe somewhere else. Or you look for something else to kind of make yourself feel better 'cause you can't find it at home. On both ends, of course, that could be detrimental to a marriage or a committed relationship. So I'm pretty sure if this information was more accessible a lot more marriages would've kind of like stuck it out.

Touseef Mirza:
Been able to kind of really weather the storm. So at what point did you actually start to pinpoint that this was perimenopause?

Rich Wilson:
I think I saw a commercial, and this is, this is getting a little foggy and I don't wanna say anything specific, but I believe I saw a commercial for some type of treatment. I don't know whether it was a pill or whether it was some type of treatment, but whatever it was, the commercial was articulating my wife to me. Like, it sounded like, yeah, I know exactly what that looks like. I know that, that and this.
And it just caused me to kind of, kind of just, it just drew my attention or what have you and whatever it was that they were advertising. I went looking for it in a drugstore to see if maybe this is something because I, we skipped past the hot flashes, which really began to become an issue. That was probably the, the first thing that kind of like, made me feel like this is something that we could treat or deal with.

Everything else was more emotional based and situational. But hot flash, I was like, I know what hot flashes are, you know, guys were just dumb by, but I heard hot flash and I associate that with menopause. I'm like, all right, maybe we can do something about that.
I’m not connecting all the other dots, but that sounds like something we can fix. In combination with this commercial that I saw, I said, let me stop by the drugstore to see what I can find. Talk to the pharmacist. He's like, oh, go down that aisle. And sure enough, in the bottom, whatever of the aisle, there's a few different options that you can have. I think one was estrogen and the other one was another one. But they're both competing brands or what have you. When you look at the box, it kind of breaks down exactly some of the things that we're talking about. Irritability, moodiness or mood regulation, maybe bloating, joint pain and sleeplessness and hot flash, something like that. I'm like, Ooh, hot flash. All right, great.

Touseef Mirza:
I'm home.

Rich Wilson:
I'm excited. Like, babe, take this.

Touseef Mirza:
I'm gonna solve the problem. Here you go. I fixed it.

Rich Wilson:
I'm the man. I fixed it. Once again, like that's, that's what was in my mind, right? So obviously she's reading it and we're like, wow, we're both surprised at this point. Like, wow, this is what we've been dealing with. And so on the one hand, I don't know if it was kind of like a placebo effect, but I think we're both just relieved to have something to point to, to say that this is not just me. It's not just you. This is something else. And that was the beginning of that, what have you. So let's see. The fact that it's just written in print made a whole lot of sense. And we were kind of like, so did it really work? Did not, sure. But now we're taking something for this that we don't know what it was. And so it works, you know? And I can honestly say maybe for a few months it seemed to, you know, hot flashes seemed to reduce. And so we start ordering it online and getting tons of this stuff. She's taking it.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Like it's candy.

Rich Wilson:
Candy. Yeah. But that was short-lived like, it wasn't the fix or anything.Because obviously now that we know later that there was a lot more going on or what have you. But it, it, you know, at least it served its purpose, which was to draw your attention to something that we need to pull, just pull on that thread a little bit. And I think that's somewhere there. She might have reached out to you, Dr. Sophia, and said,
Hey, whether it be at a routine checkup or what have you, but then started to kind of mention certain things, and that might have been the point where per menopause came into the conversation. And so she came home and said, well, Dr. Sophia said you can take that, but let's start talking about some other things. 'cause Perhaps, you know, that there's a longer road ahead and maybe more aggressive things that you're gonna have to be dealing with. But I'm not sure she was ready to hear that right away.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
'Cause Yeah, it was interesting. And I, and actually your wife's reaction and her whole thought process is actually one that I think I have with many patients. So they start feeling real symptoms of perimenopause typically come in, I would even say up to years, they are already dealing with it before it becomes a conversation.

Touseef Mirza:
I'm already in menopause. I've never had a conversation about perimenopause. And I went through the symptoms in all my forties. That was like 10 years ago when nobody talked about this. And no ObGyn at that point, Dr. Sophia was not my ObGyn. So nobody talked to me. And I was just like, I guess I'm just a little crazy right now.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Literally, I get it. So when I did start to have the conversation with his wife, she was just like, well, I work out, I change my diet. I'm eating right. If this is really perimenopause, I'm gonna be able to work out. I'm gonna be able to, let me just get a little supplement. What are the supplements you think I need to take? And I said, I fully am on board with whatever you are comfortable with. I am here as a resource for you. I definitely think what you're working with or what you're dealing with is perimenopause. And she says, and are you sure about this? Because my other ObGyn did labs and said that my labs are, my hormones are fine. And I was like, okay, I understand. I know your labs may be fine, but that's today and your labs can be whatever they wanna be at any point in this.

But some of the symptoms you're describing to me definitely sound like perimenopause. And I love the fact that you are already doing what you can now that you know that that might be what's working at play between your workouts and how you're eating. And I remember one of the things that really was making her personally feel very frustrated was the fact that she'd been changing so much of her lifestyle with her workouts and her diet and everything, and then wasn't seeing a thing budge on the scale.
She was losing it with that, that like the weight gain was definitely one of the impetus I think that also brought her in to see me. And I said, okay. I said, let's see, let's start, I want you on some magnesium to help you at night. I want you on something called dim to see how we can work, rework some of your hormone balancing, definitely the way that you're eating more green leafy vegetables, et cetera. We went through a whole gamut and I said to her, I said, well, there may be a point in time where hormones may come into play, but we can cross that bridge when we get there.

It's very hard. I mean, we're talking about a young 40, mid forties, very vibrant woman. I mean, your wife is such a dynamic woman. And so it's like, well, what are you talking about perimenopause? I'm not even old enough to be in perimenopause. And I was like, okay, I understand you don't feel like you should be old enough to be in perimenopause, but the reality is, women as young as 40 go through full blown menopause and up to 10 years before you can be experiencing symptoms that part's called Perry.

And when we went through that exercise of understanding she was like, wow, wait a minute. So you really think I'm in perimenopause? And I was like, yes.

Touseef Mirza:
Part of the problem is, like culturally and in the movies and the way that we talk about the changes that women go through, we just focused on menopause. Yeah. I mean, 10 years ago there was nobody talking about Perry, this is like a new thing since the past like three to five years that's coming up. It's not new. It's not new at all. Right?

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
A lot of times just women we're not ready to hear it, right? Because it just, it seems like it doesn't add up. And it seems like, well, well, my period is still normal. What are you even talking about, oh, you don't
even know what you're talking about . You, you get what I'm saying?

Touseef Mirza:
You’re just trying to get me on drugs.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Just trying to put me on something or what have you. And even if it's not trying to put them on something and I have to say, well, okay, well, well then let's first start with lifestyle changes and things like that. Because at the end of the day, the reality is, if I can get you on board with the diet changes and the exercise and the mindfulness, you know, if I can at least get you on board with that, because I still need that. Even if you go on supplements and actual hormone replacement, you still have to put in the work. And at the end of the day, everybody's always looking for the magic pill. We're all looking for the thing. Okay, I just need you to fix it right now. And unfortunately, because perimenopause in and of itself is a dynamic thing, it doesn't just, okay, I treat it with this thing today and then it's gone tomorrow.
It's over time. The symptom you have today may not be the same symptoms you have tomorrow. And we now have to adjust in order to try to keep coming back to center and making you feel back to being whole. And I think that is the hardest part about being in perimenopause.

Touseef Mirza:
Once your wife went to see Dr. Sophia and then, you know, you said that point, we understood it was perimenopause. Was that a relief?

Rich Wilson:
Big time. We were both like, it started with that little box that we were reading the symptoms like, all right, this is not just me. This is a thing. And then obviously now a doctor confirmed it like, yeah, this is a thing and it is, despite your age and everything else that you're doing, this is actually a thing for you. And she came home very excited to tell me everything that you discussed or what you. She's like, this is what she said, and dah, dah, dah, blah, blah, blah. You should come with me next time. It was a whole day of teamwork that, you know, whether I was, you realize that I'm a silent partner in the background or what have you. And she's telling me everything that you guys discussed or what have you, and it's kind of like a high five.

I'm like, okay, you know, we have something to work on. It was like a flash point moment where we have a thing that we can now team up against and that helped and everything was processed through that lens from that point forward. So I would love this for other relationships, other couples, other marriages, for them to have that moment where they're not attacking each other or looking at each other in a personal way because of this, but they have that realization that there's something else working against them and then they can team up against it, you know, and work together to at least deal with it. Because once you get to menopause, perhaps that has its own challenges. So I'll say this, you mentioned from your last period you have to go 12 consecutive months, months without a period, right? So we're in a phase now where every time she does get a period, we're like-

Touseef Mirza:
It's still not happening.

Rich Wilson:
We gotta reset the clock because we are at least trying to get to that next phase. And there's less changes. You know what I mean, up and down. Is it this, is it that, so I know it's a long period, it's five years, eight years, however long it is. But when we get there, that's gonna be a great day when we decide, all right, that's over with. Now what's the new challenge? And that's what it means to grow old together.

Like, you know, there's always gonna be challenges and my challenges are coming up next. I'm not young either, so men have their own challenges and phases that we're gonna go through and I'm gonna need her the same way. You know what I mean? So we are anxious to get past that. When we get past that, we're gonna deal with what comes next and then make room for me and my changes when I get to a certain point and what have you. That's what marriage is about. You know, just kind of riding the waves and getting through phases and chapters in life. But this is an important one to talk about.

Touseef Mirza:
So, one thing I wanted to ask you, because you know, when you were talking about before when you didn't know what was going on, but you were both of you feeling the effects of it. You talked about literally putting in question the relationship and being scared about it. Once you knew that it was perimenopause, what was your emotional reaction to it versus how it was before?

Rich Wilson:
It sounds weird to say, but it's the truth. Like I really felt sorry for her, I guess. So compassion sympathy was probably the, the, the immediate response like, oh man. And then I felt guilty also because of all the times I was super frustrated with myself taking things personally and so forth and it's like, oh man, it was all because of something she couldn't necessarily help, you know? It's out of her control. So then my heart sank regarding that as well, but guilt is not a good motivator. Like it doesn't last long, you know?

So I'm glad I got past the guilty phase. Sympathy is another phase, but then now just understanding is probably the best emotion. 'cause I, I get it. You know, and that doesn't make it easy. It doesn't make it, you know, as if everything is all good now, but it's just, I understand that this is another aspect of life that we just gotta navigate and in the smallest of the biggest ways.

So it could be, like I said, the same little tasks and little things, you need help with that or what have you. All right. So then I gotta lighten my load to be available for whatever might be needed that I might not have had to get involved with before. I gotta do it now. Kind of get ahead of things, try to put out fires before they start, put gas in the car before, you know, she has to find out that there's no gas and 'cause she forgot to tell me and this stuff. And now you know, you get a phone call and I need whatever it is, make sure this is taken care of. Make sure that is taken care of. You already know where the flash points can be. Try to get ahead of it and it takes more effort for me. But I really appreciate her 'cause she's very appreciative. Sometimes women don't vocalize that you really got me through this week or this day, or if it wasn't for you. Like, I actually hear those words. And so that sets me up for the next week to keep this thing going.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Was she having that sense of gratitude even in the moments before she knew that this was perimenopause?

Rich Wilson:
Perhaps. But it was hard for me to see 'cause I was so busy taking it personally I guess. So I'm just like you know, you don't know what I do. You don't realize what I do and I'm trying my best and all this type of stuff. I tell myself that she might have found ways to say it, but I-

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
You weren't hearing her.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah, I wasn't hearing. But now that we kind of just got past that ugly phase, now we're at a place where we can kind of give and receive and it makes sense. And even if you don't get an acknowledgement in that moment, you'll make up for it later. There's gonna be something else that kind of brings it all together and vice versa.

Touseef Mirza:
But you actually understand why it's happening. Yeah. It's actually not because of you. And she's also going through it. So there's like, okay, we also-

Rich Wilson:
It's not all about me, it's, it's not all about me. It's okay. You know, it's no problem. Sometimes men are just very silent supporters and that's okay. You don't always have to be, you know, patted on the back for certain things. 'cause This is like we mentioned in the onset, what you signed up for. You say right away, oh, I didn't sign up for this, actually did you sign up for this/

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
For your vows.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah, your vows. But better for worse, sickness and health are gonna grow until death do us apart. Right. So that includes growing home, includes menopause, includes perimenopause and all that stuff.

Touseef Mirza:
You should say sickness, perimenopause and health , you know, so everybody knows that this is a thing.
Rich Wilson:
It is a thing and we all signed up for it. But the quicker we realize that this is what it is, the better. . And that's why I salute you guys for putting this out there to educate, you know, the other men that are listening and you. That this is important. This is really gonna help you men better or be a man better. Because when you have your wife, you know, they say happy wife, happy life or whatever, when she's not happy, I can't do what I do best. It bothers me as I leave the house to do whatever I gotta do because of problems at home. So it is even, it is, it serves me to make her happy as well. Yeah. I gotta try to remember that.

Touseef Mirza:
Now that you've gone through this journey and you, you know, we went through before you understood it was perimenopause and after, for the, the couples, the men, the women that are going through maybe in the perimenopause phase without knowing it, are there certain guidance recommendation that you would give based on what you went through so that it's easier for both of the individuals to go through this phase?

Rich Wilson:
I think being not so quick to take things personally would help. Again, hindsight is 2020, it wasn't, you know, what happened to me. But now looking back I can say like, listen, not every argument, not every negative interaction is just because your wife is whatever or because you are whatever. Sometimes there's other things that play more important than you or that you just don't see. So the fact that we're not even opening our mind at what could this be? It just relates this, this me and you type of conflict. So to anyone else, that's kind of like just trying to struggle to get here. Why are we not who we used to be?

In your relationship, consider the fact that, you know, maybe menopause is not just parked in the older woman category. Open that your mind to like, you know, yeah, we are, she's 35, she's 32. She's 38. Maybe still this could be something that's on her plate. On our plate. And start investigating at least. Of course you can't blame everything on perimenopause and that's like a-

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
A blanket statement.

Rich Wilson:
On perimenopause, so take whatever. That's not, if you have relationship problems before perimenopause, you're gonna have that plus perimenopause.So that's not a fix, but it could be a key component to understanding where you're at. Or at least take that off your plate and deal with other relationship issues, you know, which we all have and, and leave that or what have you. But you have to at least open your mind to that. And without the education, I would've never thought of it. I would've never considered it.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
So it was funny because I remember, you know, his wife calling me and being like, listen, rRch is like, did you call Sophie?

Rich Wilson:
Talk to Sophie? Like please. What did she say? ? That's where we were at a certain point.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Yeah. Where, you know, as the husband, he was the one who was really pushing her. And I, I mean I remember this, you know, of him really being the person who was like, did you ask her this? Did you ask her that? Is this something that's a part of perimenopause? Is the things that have changed even with us intimately, does that have anything to do with perimenopause? Like so many questions. And I think probably not enough people recognize as far as the men are concerned, that just doing that is actually showing a lot of support.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah. Because you, you know, we are worried about a lot of things as men and we worry about our cars and we worry about this and that or the house or what have you. And we will do all the research for those things. We'll be on YouTube all day and Google and so forth to find out the stuff that we care about and we'll have it all figured out. But then, you know, the person that you committed to, it's like you figure that you're on your own with that. Well if you claim to care about her the way that you do it, as much as these other things, then you'll put the same energy into, you know, doing all the research and the homework and the this and that or what have you. And for guys it serves us a lot to have things kind of like spelled out.

We don't run from emotion because it kind of doesn't connect with logic a lot of times. So when we see something logical and it makes sense to us, then we gravitate to it. Emotion. I don't want to hear about all that. You know, that's just whatever. But when it's logical and it's spelled out for you, it starts to make sense and then we can cling to it and kind of run with it. And I know that helped me because when it started to make sense, now it's something I can kind of run with. And then I started that.

Touseef Mirza:
So that logical part was essential

Rich Wilson:
For guys it's more essential than I think. Women are more concerned with how they feel. It doesn't have to make sense, it's how I feel. But guys are like, well what happened? What did she say? What's the diagnosis? Is there this, this, that, da da da. Okay. That starts to make sense. And then, you know, you can kind of add both together because how you feel is important, but also what is happening, what's not the black and white of it all is important. You put the two together, you got a nice, you know, little recipe for a solution.

Touseef Mirza:
When you were going through all of this before the perimenopause was actually coined, did you talk to anybody else about it or to your guy friends, to family members, like anybody?

Rich Wilson:
Nah, I'm guilty. I definitely kept it all in. I know that's the worst thing to do, but there was nobody there, there was no safe space, I should say. For that. And there's another, that's a different conversation, different podcast. Why don't guys talk about anything, but because of that. Yeah. Something going on at home like this, we we're not going to.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
It's okay, Rich, you're here on the podcast. That's gonna go out to millions of people.

Rich Wilson:
Trust me, all any of my coworkers that see is they're gonna, they're gonna trash me.

Touseef Mirza:
Or thank you.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Or thank you. Yeah, for sure. Like I said, for me, part of the reason why it was so important for me to do this, is a gentleman that I know through other friends who reached out to me and said, I need help. Can you explain to me what is, and I'm, I don't mean to be explicit here, but he's like, can you help me with this menopause? And this is someone that I don't know all that well, but he said, Hey, I saw your post, and I think my wife is going through whatever perimenopause, menopause, I don't even know, but can you explain some stuff to me? Hmm. And, and, and that really was the true impetus. You know, and I'm just so proud of him, even for reaching out to me. And then of course, that's what made me reach out to you, Rich. But I definitely think that this conversation we're having is going to land with a lot of people.

Rich Wilson:
It is out there because I was just scrolling through TikTok maybe last week, and there was a parody of a bunch of guys and, you know, middle aged, you could tell they had a little gray hair and they're just dancing in the street. And whatever the caption was, it was related to, I don't know, guys dealing with perimenopause at home and we are just happy to get five minutes of peace. And that comradery between four or five guys to make a post about it means it kind of just shows that it is getting out there. Guys can even laugh about it. Like, yeah, we're all doing it, we're all dealing with it.

But why I haven't, I didn't have anybody to speak to. I'm not sure. I wasn't ashamed of it, but, you know, it's something that you just kind of put on your shoulders and you're like, I'm gonna deal with it and keep it private. I don't know why I didn't reach out to anybody, and I don't think anybody would reach out to me. Interestingly, my wife, after she's begun to put two and two together, spoke to another one of her friends and was able to recommend some stuff, and now they had that aha moment that, all right, maybe this isn't, you know, the new norm or what have you. Her husband circled back to me later on and was like, yo, you know, God bless your wife for, you know, saying this and saying that or whatever things are better and so forth. So it broke the ice. Maybe I wouldn't approach him, but he found a way back to me and somehow the guys had that moment of, yeah, we didn't articulate a lot, but it was just a lot said in that deep breath. We took a handshake and it was just like, yeah, I know, bro.

Touseef Mirza:
So it was like a boomerang effect through the women.

Rich Wilson:
Yeah. Yeah. So the women talk. Yeah.

Touseef Mirza:
We always do.

Rich Wilson:
It came back around. And one thing I did tell 'em though, but it, you know, it's like we started a conversation, it's a journey. So I think he was in the estrogen phase, the little box that they sell at the drugstore, and that had some effect. And I remember that phase when we thought that was it. We're good. And I'm like, that's not it.

Sorry to burst the bubble. I was there. I remember the elation that I felt that we were gonna fix this thing to start the conversation now, you know.

Touseef Mirza:
So you did say that to him? Thank you for the level of openness in what you're talking about. I think that this is really good, not just for the men, but also for the women. Yeah. Like for absolutely. For, for everyone. Is there something that you would like for people to get out of this? If there was like, one thing, whether it's for the male or, or the female part, or even the relationship.

Rich Wilson:
Remember your, your vows. Remember why you're here. Don't forget that part. Now, not everybody's married. I get it. And partners look different. It's not always the same traditional sense, but if you're committed to somebody, you can't bail out when things get tough. And when it comes to guys, yes, we're not as complex in a lot of ways as females are anatomy and emotionally and everything. But don't forget your turn is coming up next when we're not gonna be a hundred percent, I don't know what that is, they call it something else, right? And guys go through their midlife crisis and we have our issues and so forth. And then we're gonna look to our partners to be understanding. We're gonna look to them to support us and to fill in the gaps, you know, behind every man as a strong woman, they do a lot behind the scenes to make us look good.

Touseef Mirza:
I love, like, this is what we signed up for. This is the commitment. So this is part of it. I just wanted to broaden this a little bit more. I think it's amazing to have the partners, the husbands committed individuals together, but for the women who are single who are going through pain menopause, I think our girlfriends can also, like, if you're seeing one of your girlfriends that all of a sudden is changing, that we can also provide that level of support to each other.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Absolutely. I think there's so many layers to this perimenopause conversation. I know that Rich, one of the things that you mentioned was the fact that you know how your wife is also professionally. And at the end of the day, most women who are in their mid forties, they have now become the most experienced person in the room. They are at their professional highs and going through this. So the relationships that they're having are not just the ones at home, but it is the ones that they're having in the office. It is the ones that they're having with their children. It is the one that they're having with their aging parents and their family and relatives. And so it's not only in one place where they're seeing the effects of how perimenopause is, it is changing the dynamics of their lives. And so I do think the beauty of having a partner is when you have the partner that is the person who's your fallback person, who you do have that safe space with.

And if you, for those women who don't have partners, it's for sure our girlfriends. And even if we have partners, because women, we know, we know how to talk to each other. We know how to be in community with each other, in our sisterhood with each other. And I definitely think that that is incredibly important when we are going through this particular phase. The problem is, we're all in the same boat, right? We simply don't know what's going on. And the fact that your wife was able to at least help one of her friends, and then her husband came back, kind of like full circle to be like, Hey man.

Rich Wilson:
Simple conversation was all it took. And, you know, the person kind of, you know, just ran with it. Obviously they did what they had to do, but it started with the conversation. It started with just admitting that, Hey, we, you know, this is what's affecting me. How about you? We have that in common and there's safety and there's comfort in that, knowing that somebody else is dealing with the same exact thing.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
Agreed. Yeah. Agreed. Rich, we are so thankful to have you on the show today. This conversation. It's not the first, it, it, you know, it's the first I should say. And it, and we hope that it's not the last that we have on how perimenopause can affect partners and men, and of course the women. We are just so grateful for your level of honesty and vulnerability here today with us. We appreciate it. And I'm sure there are many, many men who are going to listen to this podcast and hopefully they get a chance to take some very valuable information and at least not feel alone. I'm just really glad you were here. Thank you.

Rich Wilson:
Thank you for having me. This was very fulfilling on my end as well. So when I leave here, I'm gonna feel like, you know, I accomplished something today. I did something that is definitely gonna help people that I don't even know.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
You sure did.

Rich Wilson:
I hope so.

Dr. Sophia, ObGyn:
So you, you definitely did. And, and as always, here on the Dr. Sophia ObGyn podcast, we just want you to embrace your body and embrace yourself. And it doesn't matter who you are, even our men in our community, that you are too embracing your body, embracing yourself, embracing the women in your life, and thank you for joining us. Until next time, see you later. Bye bye.
This is General Medical Information, based on my professional opinion and experience. For specific medical advice, please refer to your physician. Until next time, embrace your body. Embrace yourself.